NOBELIST HORTA: 'NIKE SHOULD BE VIEWED AS AN ENEMY'

THE AMERICAN REPORTER
Vol. 3, No. 580 June 27, 1997

AN AMERICAN REPORTER EXCLUSIVE

by Gary Gach, American Reporter Correspondent

(Second of Two Parts)

SAN FRANCISCO -- Dr. Jose Ramos-Horta is the most recent recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize (shared with Bishop Belo) for his leadership of the movement for self-determination of East Timor, is Southeast Asia.

The American Reporter interviewed Dr. Horta in his hotel suite in San Francisco, June 1997. In Part One, he discussed China, the so-called "Asian Values" bloc, Indonesia's Gen. Suharto, and his disappointment with U.S. recognition and aid.

On Resisting Hatred

AMERICAN REPORTER: You have stated, "Sometimes in history individuals in power are driven to commit wanton crimes, but those who survive and are in power today should resist the temptation to exact revenge in the name of justice." Isn't it hard for you, after the death of your relatives at the hands of the Indonesian government, to be free of hatred for people like Gen. Suharto and Indonesian Foreign minister Ali Alatas?

DR. JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: That's hard, certainly.

ARH: Is there a secret to how you do it?

JRH: No. I lost three brothers and a sister. Even if I were to meet face-to-face with the officers who murdered my three brothers and sister I wouldn't have the courage to execute them in cold blood. Nor would I allow anyone to do it.

I would appeal, because a human being is a human being, one who has his relatives [ killed ] -- brothers and sisters, their mother, their father, their children; just to mention the pain inflicted on those relatives -- if you [ were to ask to ] to execute them.

I am referring to [ instances when there is ] a certain historical and political context.

Obviously, criminals that murder people in cold blood for robbery, they must go to trial and be sentenced to whatever the court finds justifiable.

I have enormous respect for the South Korean people, and have praised their struggle. When the two ex-presidents were put on trial because of the Kwangju Massacre and one was sentenced to death, I appealed for the commuting of the death sentence.

When you are head of a state, when you are in certain circumstances in a war, when you are in certain situations in your life, you are led to make actions that you cannot alone be responsible for. Yes, justice has to do be done, but justice is not served by the death sentence.

The South Korean people showed even more greatness by having the courage and the heart to forgive, to commute the death sentence.

Asian Business Values

AR: Governments are sometimes immobilized by realtpolitik. How do you feel about government inviting businesses to adopt codes of conduct for foreign situations, as Sears, Reebok, and Levi Strauss have been doing? How do you feel about that?

JRH: Certain oil and mining companies, in places like the Amazon, Nigeria, and West Papua [ Papua New Guinea ], have contributed to the devastation of the environment, the livelihood, and the lives of millions of people. We cannot hold only arms industries and the governments responsible for their actions.

The absence of war that kills people doesn't mean that people are not dying as a result of another form of war being conducted by businesses, on the environment, on the traditional land, culture, people's values. Tens of thousands of people have been dispossessed because of greedy American, European, and other multinationals.

Having said that, I'd also add there are certain companies that observe [ a ] code of conduct, that take care of the land, the people. They make every effort to have an ethical approach to business. These companies must be commended, because it is inevitable that economic development and business trade naturally affect human lives.

They are necessary -- countries in this global village/global economy need to trade, invest, trade, buy, sell, have capital. So what is important is that there is concerned consciousness on the part of the business sector in respecting the people in the country they're working in. Those companies that observe this must be commended.

Others, like Nike, should be viewed as enemies, in the same manner we view armies and governments that perpetrate human rights violations. What is the difference between the behavior of Nike in Indonesia and elsewhere, and the Japanese imperial army during WWII?

AR: We hear that American companies doing business in Indonesia today allot 30 percent of their budget towards corruption. Isn't this an example of pursuing a short-term gain that, in the long term, is going blow up on them, like musical chairs?

JRH: Indonesia is viewed as the most corrupt country in the world, above China, Mexico, Nigeria, Russia. That obviously does not serve the interest of business in the long run. Many businesses I know have pulled out of Indonesia because, having paid so much bribes, they see the margin of profit is no longer justified.

But companies that continue to pay the high price are digging themselves deeper and deeper in this tragic situation. They associate themselves with a repressive regime with a corrupt ditgatorship and spoil their own prestige. So if every company was to stick to a certain code of conduct, well, then these regimes would have no choice but to change their own behavior.

As A Jew, Respect For History

AR: Multiculturalism is an imperative we're all living with, globally and locally. What's your own background?

JRH: I have Jewish, Portugese, Catholic, Asian, and African in my family. And it is a source for me of a sort of pride, teaching me to respect different cultures and religions around the world.

I have the profoundest respect for the Jewish people and their history -- as I do for the Gypsies, the Armenians, the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Burmese, or the Aborigines of Australia, the Maoris of New Zealand.

I don't have any immediate Jewish relatives. My Jewish background goes back to when my ancestors were forced to convert to Christianity, on the Iberian peninsula, during the Inquisition. As a teenager, I was always fascinated by the Jews, a people that suffered enormously. I don't think in human history there has been a people that has been so consistently, so systematically abused, humilated, and killed as this religion. Of course, there have been similar crimes committed -- the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the black people of West Africa that were sold as slaves by the millions to the North Americans -- but these were specific cases in a certain time frame of history. In the case of Jews, it went on for thousands of years, until the Holocaust of the '40s. And the outrage is that throughout the '30s the U.S., England, France knew what was happening to the Jews in Europe and they didn't do anything about it. They suppressed the information that was available. Their policy was dictated by realpolitik and pragmatism, not to challenge Hitler. Their policy was appeasement. So they allowed genocide to take place.

And what is remarkable is that 50 years later nations haven't learned: appeasement of dictators continues; the biggest threat today to the region is China.

What To Do About China?

AR: Well, what can you do? You can't boycott China.

JRH: Obviously it is a major dilemma. I don't believe in a policy of containment. I don't believe in military alliances which the U.S. and Australia tend to make with Southeast Asian countries towards an emerging Chinese threat. But the same time as they fear China's economic and miltary build-up, they continue to provide all the ingredients, all the elements that precisely allow China ...

My humble -- maybe utopian -- view is that, in the long run, the only alternative for peace and stability in the region is a comprehensive disarmanent. There has to be a creative, intelligent process of bringing Japan, China, the U.S., Korea, India, and Indonesia to a mutlilateral treaty for gradual reduction of the troops.

There has to be a regional mechanism for disarmament, and dialogue amongst policy makers, the military, and the society at large. Because, otherwise, the arms race is going to continue and at some point you reach a flashpoint where there'll be confrontation. It would be disastrous for the entire region, for the people there. It would stop economic growth so necessary to absorb the millions that enter the job market every year. Indonesia has more than two million people entering the job market.

The money wasted in the arms procurement and the arms race should be devoted to development. And development can take place in the long run if it is based on respect for human life: human rights, democracy, rule of law, tolerance.

If you have human rights, democracy, rule of law, tolerance, you don't need sophisticated weaponry. Then you can save money, divert this money to develop resources to feed the peple.

You can say,"Oh well, that's utopian." Well, maybe. But let's try. Because we've already seen the alternative throughout history. We've seen in WWII when Germany tried to expand eastward; when Japan tried to create a so-called "Co-Prosperity Sphere." We saw what happened.

What hasn't been tried yet is a comprehensive demilitarization, disarmament, in the Asian Pacific region, South Asia, East Asia, in the entire region. I think it's possible.

Home Is On My Mind

AR: What's the first thing you think of when you face each new day?

JHR: As I wake up and begin to confront the daily challenges and problems and so on, my first concern is to continue the struggle of the people of East Timor. I want to go back to my country. I want to be able to say to the people, "We have won!" And then retire. I have no ambition to hold any public office. That was never my concern.

And to do whatever I can to to speak out for Aung San Suu Kyi who's unable to speak, to speak out for Wei Jingsheng, for Kurdistan, to speak out for those Indonesians in prison today who do not have a voice. I am privileged in that I am in exile, relatively free, in comfort and security, able to speak out -- for those who are less privileged, for those who are in prison, like my own leader Xanana Gusman, who is shut in prison with so many other Indonesian compatriots -- that is my daily concern and daily challenge.

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